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Under a Glass Moon = Lost not Forgotten

  • Under a Glass Moon = Lost not Forgotten
    October 11, 2011 - 12:45am

    The 'Lost not a Glass Moon' Theory

    I've been struck by how similar LnF is to UaGM in composition. Upon closer inspection I heard that these two songs are even more alike than my initial impression! I'm not going to get TOO detailed but here's what I've noticed. Most of what I comment on here is in regard to the general feel of the music, I didn't get too much into analyzing all the micro parts of each instrument. The overall point is to convey how the overall song structure is similar in both cases.

    I'm including pairs of time markers; one for each song. Each pair indicates the beginning of a section that is similar. The Lost not Forgotten time marker will be listed first followed by Under a Glass Moon. I've then included a short blurb on how I feel that section is similar.

    0:42 - Lost not Forgotten
    0:00 - Under a Glass Moon

    The guitar riff is a long drawn out melody line that Petrucci creates by moving a chord form up and down the neck. (I assume)
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    1:12 - Lost not Forgotten
    0:26 - Under a Glass Moon

    The Groove kicks in with a similar drum pattern emphasizing double bass rhythms.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    1:42 - Lost not Forgotten
    0:53 - Under a Glass Moon

    The melody turns into a metal chug. I'll call this Chug 'A'. This chug is building on what the rhythm was already just doing underneath the intro melody line.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    1:58 - Lost not Forgotten
    1:05 - Under a Glass Moon

    Both LnF and UaGM move into a clashing/dissonant sounding section after chug A. UaGM is chordal here whereas LnF is a fast moving unison section. Still similar feel to the choice of notes though!
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    2:31 - Lost not Forgotten
    1:19 - Under a Glass Moon

    We now have a slower metal chug leading into the first verse. This is Chug 'B'.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    3:46 - Lost not Forgotten
    2:09 - Under a Glass Moon

    First chorus here. Notice how the drum feel turns to a strong steady double bass rhythm with accents on every downbeat. The drums then move to the backbeat on the second line. The feel proceeds to return to the downbeats and then back to backbeats. There's more! In between every lyrical line there's a syncopated little riff. and then…
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    4:27 - Lost not Forgotten
    2:35 - Under a Glass Moon

    We return to Chug A!
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    4:51 - Lost not Forgotten
    2:52 - Under a Glass Moon

    Both songs move into a second verse but neither follows the form of the first verse! Both of them turn to a slightly more hopeful/happy sounding melody line and backing.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    5:40 - Lost not Forgotten
    3:31 - Under a Glass Moon

    We return to the chorus after having finished the second verse section. The Chorus retains the same basic form in both cases.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    6:22 - Lost not Forgotten
    3:59 - Under a Glass Moon

    I'm calling this the start of the instrumental section. It's similar in both songs! The drums/guitar/bass are playing unison syncopated hits while the keyboard plays a competing part that comes through in the gaps.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    6:57 - Lost not Forgotten
    4:26 - Under a Glass Moon

    The guitar abandons the syncopation for some chordal playing. This does not last too long in both cases.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    7:10 - Lost not Forgotten
    4:37 - Under a Glass Moon

    Guitar Solo! both solos have this kinda shreddy-bluesy feel and moments of syncopated backing from the other instruments. _______________________________________________________________________________________

    8:07 - Lost not Forgotten
    5:30 - Under a Glass Moon

    The guitar solo is followed by 8 measures of a repeating phrase over top moving chords below. Definitely a similar feel here for the bridge between guitar and keyboard solos.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    8:22 - Lost not Forgotten
    5:47 - Under a Glass Moon

    Keyboard solo! Man this LnF key solo carries the vibe of the UaGM solo in a serious way! I love it! Both solos lead to this climactic instrumental section end.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    8:52 - Lost not Forgotten
    6:10 - Under a Glass Moon

    The climax! Big unison syncopated hits across the entire band.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    9:04 - Lost not Forgotten
    6:21 - Under a Glass Moon

    We return to the Chorus. Now this is crazy. Both songs switch up the feel of this last chorus in the same way! Instead of the drums starting with emphasizing downbeats then moving to upbeats, Mangini and Portnoy both stay on the down beats for the entire first half of the chorus. When it comes to the second half of the chorus, Portnoy stays on the down beats in UaGM just like the first half but Mangini returns to the upbeats again. But still, in both cases the feel is changed so that the entire first half of the chorus is consistent and the entire last half is consistent, unlike both earlier choruses.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    9:46 - Lost not Forgotten
    6:48 - Under a Glass Moon

    We return to the intro Melody in all its glory! Both songs run through this melody once and proceed into a syncopated little riff to give both songs a cold ending. We made it!
    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    And there we go. 'Lost not a Glass Moon'. I believe that this was done purposefully by Petrucci as one way of creating a strong connection between Images and Words and A dramatic Turn of Events.

    Regards,

    Justin

    12
jmw's picture
on October 11, 2011 - 12:45am

The 'Lost not a Glass Moon' Theory

I've been struck by how similar LnF is to UaGM in composition. Upon closer inspection I heard that these two songs are even more alike than my initial impression! I'm not going to get TOO detailed but here's what I've noticed. Most of what I comment on here is in regard to the general feel of the music, I didn't get too much into analyzing all the micro parts of each instrument. The overall point is to convey how the overall song structure is similar in both cases.

I'm including pairs of time markers; one for each song. Each pair indicates the beginning of a section that is similar. The Lost not Forgotten time marker will be listed first followed by Under a Glass Moon. I've then included a short blurb on how I feel that section is similar.

0:42 - Lost not Forgotten
0:00 - Under a Glass Moon

The guitar riff is a long drawn out melody line that Petrucci creates by moving a chord form up and down the neck. (I assume)
_______________________________________________________________________________________

1:12 - Lost not Forgotten
0:26 - Under a Glass Moon

The Groove kicks in with a similar drum pattern emphasizing double bass rhythms.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

1:42 - Lost not Forgotten
0:53 - Under a Glass Moon

The melody turns into a metal chug. I'll call this Chug 'A'. This chug is building on what the rhythm was already just doing underneath the intro melody line.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

1:58 - Lost not Forgotten
1:05 - Under a Glass Moon

Both LnF and UaGM move into a clashing/dissonant sounding section after chug A. UaGM is chordal here whereas LnF is a fast moving unison section. Still similar feel to the choice of notes though!
_______________________________________________________________________________________

2:31 - Lost not Forgotten
1:19 - Under a Glass Moon

We now have a slower metal chug leading into the first verse. This is Chug 'B'.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

3:46 - Lost not Forgotten
2:09 - Under a Glass Moon

First chorus here. Notice how the drum feel turns to a strong steady double bass rhythm with accents on every downbeat. The drums then move to the backbeat on the second line. The feel proceeds to return to the downbeats and then back to backbeats. There's more! In between every lyrical line there's a syncopated little riff. and then…
_______________________________________________________________________________________

4:27 - Lost not Forgotten
2:35 - Under a Glass Moon

We return to Chug A!
_______________________________________________________________________________________

4:51 - Lost not Forgotten
2:52 - Under a Glass Moon

Both songs move into a second verse but neither follows the form of the first verse! Both of them turn to a slightly more hopeful/happy sounding melody line and backing.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

5:40 - Lost not Forgotten
3:31 - Under a Glass Moon

We return to the chorus after having finished the second verse section. The Chorus retains the same basic form in both cases.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

6:22 - Lost not Forgotten
3:59 - Under a Glass Moon

I'm calling this the start of the instrumental section. It's similar in both songs! The drums/guitar/bass are playing unison syncopated hits while the keyboard plays a competing part that comes through in the gaps.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

6:57 - Lost not Forgotten
4:26 - Under a Glass Moon

The guitar abandons the syncopation for some chordal playing. This does not last too long in both cases.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

7:10 - Lost not Forgotten
4:37 - Under a Glass Moon

Guitar Solo! both solos have this kinda shreddy-bluesy feel and moments of syncopated backing from the other instruments. _______________________________________________________________________________________

8:07 - Lost not Forgotten
5:30 - Under a Glass Moon

The guitar solo is followed by 8 measures of a repeating phrase over top moving chords below. Definitely a similar feel here for the bridge between guitar and keyboard solos.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

8:22 - Lost not Forgotten
5:47 - Under a Glass Moon

Keyboard solo! Man this LnF key solo carries the vibe of the UaGM solo in a serious way! I love it! Both solos lead to this climactic instrumental section end.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

8:52 - Lost not Forgotten
6:10 - Under a Glass Moon

The climax! Big unison syncopated hits across the entire band.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

9:04 - Lost not Forgotten
6:21 - Under a Glass Moon

We return to the Chorus. Now this is crazy. Both songs switch up the feel of this last chorus in the same way! Instead of the drums starting with emphasizing downbeats then moving to upbeats, Mangini and Portnoy both stay on the down beats for the entire first half of the chorus. When it comes to the second half of the chorus, Portnoy stays on the down beats in UaGM just like the first half but Mangini returns to the upbeats again. But still, in both cases the feel is changed so that the entire first half of the chorus is consistent and the entire last half is consistent, unlike both earlier choruses.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

9:46 - Lost not Forgotten
6:48 - Under a Glass Moon

We return to the intro Melody in all its glory! Both songs run through this melody once and proceed into a syncopated little riff to give both songs a cold ending. We made it!
_______________________________________________________________________________________

And there we go. 'Lost not a Glass Moon'. I believe that this was done purposefully by Petrucci as one way of creating a strong connection between Images and Words and A dramatic Turn of Events.

Regards,

Justin

Forum category: 
jmw's picture

@skildude: First, if you thought I was complaining about all this you got the wrong impression. I think it's cool. And second, this isn't just some licks and lyrics that are throwbacks. It's entire songs that [i]exactly[/i] duplicate song structure from Images and Words. It was done purposefully. It's a really neat idea by DT overall.

skildude's picture

OK Heres the simple truth. Bands tend to reuse their old material.

RUSH goes so far as to mas 2-3 songs into one and call it a medley.

Heck look back to John Fogerty. He got sued by his old record company for "The Old Man Down The Road" which sounded similar to some of his work with CCR. The case was thrown out because one can't be held responsible for sounding like oneself.

That being said, I've heard numerous licks and lyrics that are throwbacks to previous albums from other DT albums. Let's not get caught up in a band sounding like itself or feeding off old songs to make creative new songs from them.

Philba1966's picture

I noticed the similarities between Waiting for Sleep / Learning to Live and Far from Heaven / Breaking All Illusions (best piece on the album IMHO!) on my first couple of listens. I'm doing a bit of dissection myself now (ADTOE on the Bose, I&W on the desktop speakers - not fair, I know!).

No need to apologize to me at least jmw...I love the detail you put into it and will check out the other track combinations suggested in the same vain. This is the life I belong to!

Signatus's picture

The first time I heard the album I realized that it was a very, very, very I&W influenced.

But, I like I&W, and I liked the way the band put this influence on the new album.

Comicsnut's picture

I've also noticed something, I'm not a very good musician so I can't go into as much depth about it as the OP here.

But when listening to the chorus of Lost Not Forgotten I can't help but think of Rush's Limelight.

When humming or singing along, I always feel like it sounds like:

"Lost not forgotten the universal dream For those who wish to see..."

Maybe it's just me...but it sounds like something in there is the same. No?

Soulfire's picture

I noticed the intro to UAGM and Lost not Forgotten sounded basically the same, but not only do i not have a problem with it, I think it's great. Also i'm not sure if the similarities between other songs on the album are [i]too[/i] close, but yes they are there. I still don't think its a problem. The only people I have heard complain about these similarites are Portnoy purists frankly.

jmw's picture

Ok, I inspected the other song pairs a lot closer and now I feel like an idiot for not noticing those. I mean, I had already noticed all the obvious moments that were similar to Images and Words (Like the intro structure in OtBoA and the verse break down in Breaking All Illusions for example) but I didn't realize that other songs from aDToE were 'twins' besides Lost not Forgotten.

Not all of the songs pairings mentioned by The Shaman earlier are [i]exact[/i] twins though like UaGM and LnF.

The identical twins are: On the Backs of Angels=Pull Me Under, Lost not Forgotten=Under a Glass Moon, This is the Life=Another Day, Far from Heaven=Wait for Sleep

Breaking all Illusions has [i]a lot[/i] of homage moments in it to Learning to Live but it's just not an EXACT duplicate in structure like the other pairs. Regardless, it's safe to say that it's meant to connect with Learning to Live.

I found that Outcry was an exact duplicate of Metropolis when it came to the first half, up until it hits the instrumental section. It seems like they kinda strayed after that. Not Sure. Maybe if I keep listening to it closer I'll start to see how they're similar.

I'm curious to know if BMUBMD, and BtS fit into this grand scheme somehow. Neither of them seem to relate to Take the Time or Surrounded at all, but perhaps there's another way they fit.

jmw's picture

Well, sorry about posting something that's already been discussed. I haven't followed what's been up on the web in regard to this. I just wrote about it because I wanted to. It didn't really take that long, maybe an hour? I don't quite get how this could be a divisive topic. It's an objective fact that both of these songs have nearly identical structures. I'm going to go through and inspect all the other pairings and see if they're as uncannily similar as LnF and UaGM now.

Ytsejam58's picture

I did notice it... the drum in the chorus is, the first half is double bass with the snare accent on 1 but in the second half of the chorus the snare accent is on 3.... also in album structure the single is first (pull me under to on the backs of angels) and the long song is at the end (in exception to beneath the surface)

reo73's picture

Old news and a very divisive topic among fans. Some hear it and some don't. It will be interesting to see if the band ever comes out and explains all this. So far no interviewer has asked either. Personally, I find it to be plain as day and quite genius on their part.

The Shaman's picture

The thing is: You're right, but haven't you checked the internet? This has been widely discussed. It's the same for OTBOA - Pull me under; TITL - Another Day; Outcry - Metropolis; Far from Heaven / Breaking all Illusions - Wait for Sleep / Learning to live.

But lots of people just don't believe it.

Wolfpacker96's picture

Dude, you have way too much time on your hands! :)