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Accepting Disappointment

  • Accepting Disappointment
    October 23, 2011 - 4:50am

    Let me start off by saying that I have been a lifelong fan of Dream Theater. I‘ve had the opportunity to enjoy their unique vision since they were a bar band on Long Island named Majesty. I have their entire discography loaded into my iPod and I’ve seen them in concert dozens of times. I was very sad when I first heard that Mike Portnoy was no longer part of the group, though Mike Mangini is certainly a tremendous drummer and a great choice for a replacement.

    However, I have to admit that I have been steadily losing interest in their music. Don't get me wrong, the level of musicianship is always incredible and I have tremendous respect for them, but their last few records have started to sound the same to me. I've always leaned more toward the lushly-orchestrated side of Dream Theater (which they seem to be abandoning), rather than the heavier side. Usually when I would get a new DT album, it would require about 10 listens before the main themes and melodies would emerge and get stuck in my mind. After listening to this latest album for about a month straight, it has just gotten stale for me. I think that the band used to have a much better balance between what is technically hard to play and what is catchy. After multiple listens, I’ve found that many of the riffs on the new album were becoming tedious and irritating to my ear, often sounding more like guitar picking exercises than musical motifs. Unfortunately, I've kind of felt the same about their last three studio albums, though I tended to overlook my disappointment because of the band's rich history. This last album has really epitomized that disappointed feeling in me.

    I don’t write this easily. Dream Theater has long been one of the few bright spots in a music scene that is mostly barren. I still love their earlier work and revere it as some of the best music ever made; however, they just don’t feel like a vital entity anymore.

    74
Phrygian Sunshine's picture
on October 23, 2011 - 4:50am

Let me start off by saying that I have been a lifelong fan of Dream Theater. I‘ve had the opportunity to enjoy their unique vision since they were a bar band on Long Island named Majesty. I have their entire discography loaded into my iPod and I’ve seen them in concert dozens of times. I was very sad when I first heard that Mike Portnoy was no longer part of the group, though Mike Mangini is certainly a tremendous drummer and a great choice for a replacement.

However, I have to admit that I have been steadily losing interest in their music. Don't get me wrong, the level of musicianship is always incredible and I have tremendous respect for them, but their last few records have started to sound the same to me. I've always leaned more toward the lushly-orchestrated side of Dream Theater (which they seem to be abandoning), rather than the heavier side. Usually when I would get a new DT album, it would require about 10 listens before the main themes and melodies would emerge and get stuck in my mind. After listening to this latest album for about a month straight, it has just gotten stale for me. I think that the band used to have a much better balance between what is technically hard to play and what is catchy. After multiple listens, I’ve found that many of the riffs on the new album were becoming tedious and irritating to my ear, often sounding more like guitar picking exercises than musical motifs. Unfortunately, I've kind of felt the same about their last three studio albums, though I tended to overlook my disappointment because of the band's rich history. This last album has really epitomized that disappointed feeling in me.

I don’t write this easily. Dream Theater has long been one of the few bright spots in a music scene that is mostly barren. I still love their earlier work and revere it as some of the best music ever made; however, they just don’t feel like a vital entity anymore.

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Jorge Armando's picture

@Phrygian Sunshine: Hey bud. Well it is an interesting posting. You should post things like like these more often, ha. Unleash the controversy!!!!
Life in Toluca, thanks for asking, is ok really. It's a tiny, little city about 60 miles away from Mexico city. I'm from a beautiful, colonial city named Morelia, though. Now that's a gorgeous place, full of life and stuff to do. They have a guitar and film festival every year and I'm pretty sure you'd like it my friend. Hope everything's good up the border. Greetings!!!

Phrygian Sunshine's picture

@Jorge Armando: Hi Jorge. Wow, this post is really a blast from the past. It's cool to reread all of the things that people were saying. At this point in time, I'm really intrigued to hear what the forth coming album is going to sound like. From the things that are being said on the news updates, I have a feeling that the new music will be awesome.

I also enjoyed reading your story of how you became interested in Dream Theater. So, what is life like in Toluca?

Jorge Armando's picture

Wow. I just discovered and read this post. Interesting one too!!! My opinion? Well, I must tell you that I discovered DT a couple years ago, when they came to Mexico in 2011. I had Budokan, Once in a livetime and Hit and 21 other pretty cool songs. That was it. To be honest I wasn't quite into them back then. Then I found out about their concert. Somehow I knew I wanted to go see them play live. Somehow I knew they were a guarantee for a great gig, even though I didn't know their music. So, I bought a ticket in the first 5 rows of the venue and attended alone. That was it, I was hooked.
I bought every single cd they'd recorded in like 7 or 8 months and that was the beginning of studying and comprehending this band. And that's when I felt sad about having never seen them as a full band, (I mean with Portnoy). But then I saw Mike, along with Steve Morse in this, really tiny, intimate venue last year, in october. I enjoyed him a lot.
Anyway. I don't feel really qualified to provide a really strong, accurate opinion. But somehow I agree with you, talking about their last production. I like it but it's not one of my favourites. Maybe it's because it's the first cd lacking Portnoy's vibe. Maybe it's because Mangini didn't actually have a real input this first time. Dunno.
I like Systematic chaos a lot, though. Lol. Ask me this question again in a year, or so. Cheers!!!

ILPower's picture

Doubtless!

Phrygian Sunshine's picture

@johncal:

After reading his recently-posted interview, I've gained a huge amount of appreciation for Mike Mangini. "A Dramatic Turn of Events" isn't a favorite album of mine, but Dream Theater is still right on!

johncal's picture

@Phrygian Sunshine:

Nicely worded and I can appreciate where you're coming from, I just can't say I agree with any of it. It sounds to me like you're a big MP fan, which is OK because I used to feel exactrly the same way but I just gave MM an unprejudiced chance, and to me he's better in every facet that is important to me in both drumming and DT's music.

Phrygian Sunshine's picture

@Sabian:

“Dream Theater will only be Dream Theater with Portnoy.”

I’d like to weigh in on the whole “Mangini vs. Portnoy” issue, but please keep in mind that, while I’ve been a musician for my entire life, I’m not a drummer. The extent of my drumming expertise comes when I go on a hike with my djembe, sit on a rock near a stream, and fill the woodsy, afternoon air with the few ethnic rhythms that I know how to play. This gives me great pleasure, but it hardly qualifies me as an authority on the subject of percussion. The opinions that I’m about to express come purely from a listener’s standpoint and not from someone with any level of education about advanced drumming techniques.

Anyway, as you know, Dream Theater is very big on odd-time signatures and frequent meter changes. With Mike Portnoy on the drums, those changes always sounded natural, fluid, and even effortless to my ear. On ADTOE, I am very much aware of meter changes, which at times feel kind of abrupt and interrupting, almost like musical hiccups. While I’m not certain that this is due to Mangini (it has been said that he wasn’t given any creative input on the album), the inclusion of a different drummer seems a likely cause.

There have been many arguments brought up claiming that Mangini possesses much more technical prowess than Portnoy, but that tidbit of information isn’t important to me. The best way that I can describe what I feel is to draw an analogy to literature. When I’m reading a great work, I forget that I am looking at words typed on a page and I’m transported in my mind to a world of the writer’s creation. I become completely absorbed in the plot; nothing else around me exists. That is when writing is a success. All too often, I read the words of amateur writers, who are more than willing to derail the flow of their storylines to showcase their literary technique and vocabulary, and I’m not moved. This practice drags me right back from the ether and reminds me that I am sitting in a chair with a book in my lap. Not a success.

It’s the same with music. If I’m constantly jarred back to awareness by meter changes, I can’t possibly be fully absorbed by the sound, can I? For me, knowledge and technique count for much less in the arts than imagination and style. A person with a diploma in Comp Lit may never compose a single sentence that inspires me, yet a third grader might find the perfect blend of words and write a poem that makes my soul skyrocket. That’s just the way it goes. Portnoy had a way of composing drum parts that were highly-challenging, yet easily palatable. Even the most intense of meter changes sounded perfectly smooth. With MP on the drums, Dream Theater was able at times to raise me up to that higher realm. That is special. I certainly respect Mangini for his learnedness. He may or may not be the more technically-skilled drummer, but I still see Portnoy as the person who was born to play this kind of music.

“Dream Theater will only be Dream Theater with Portnoy.”

Agreed.

DragonAttack's picture

to PS.
I know you did not say hate. Please take another look at my post again. I was making a reference about a set of fans of another band. Those slightly talented individuals made changes that some fans just didn't accept for one reason or another.

I agree with so much of what you've posted. I know exactly where you're coming from, because I've had the same feelings regarding some past favorite bands.

Phrygian Sunshine's picture

@DragonAttack:

Just for the record, I never used the word "hate" anywhere in this thread. Disappointment is quite different than hate.

DragonAttack's picture

I can see about six different meanings in the cover, and I can read five or six different meanings/viewpoints with the lyrics. Harkening back to various Beatle and Pink Floyd and Queen and so on....what fun for a change!!!

And so much of the lyrics and music ARE positive.

Remember this, folks. There were (are) so many Beatle fans who hated most of what followed after the 'Help' LP, and did
not like 'Hey Jude' or any of the solo offerings.

Sad.

Different strokes........

I

Phrygian Sunshine's picture

@Diogo_:

Well, since you brought up the meaningful lyrics, let’s take a closer look at what John Petrucci has been writing to his audience, shall we? He leads with this:

“Riding out the wave
Content to feed off the machine
Bleeding us to death
The new American dream

You're blinded by your hunger
Beware your days are numbered”

He goes on to say this:

“Obsession at all cost
You'll be the death of me
Broken and torn apart
Why can't you let me be?”

Next:

“I have faced the demons of our most desperate moments
I have been the one to defend our pride
I have worn the banner of my abandoned brothers
I will be the first one to give my live”

The album continues in much the same way until finally concluding with this:

“Until one day I stopped caring
And began to forget why I longed to be so close”

Sure, one can argue about the subject matter of these individual songs, but when I look “beneath the surface” and read into these lyrics with my heart, I think I can see the real John Petrucci emerge (not the guitar god, but the simple man) and I understand what he’s trying to tell me. The very title of the album “A Dramatic Turn of Events” has been widely conjectured to mean the departure of Mike Portnoy, though I am of the opinion that it is a commentary on the band’s attitude toward stardom and its demands. The cover depicts a tiny man on a unicycle (his back turned to his audience) riding into the distance on a thin rope while below the tail of a giant jet bearing the Dream Theater logo flies in the opposite direction obscured by clouds. Events are dramatically turning.

The guys in Dream Theater have been giving it everything they’ve got for over 25 years. That's a very long time. At this point, they can do whatever makes them most happy and be glad with the things they've accomplished. I can honestly say that their music became the soundtrack to my days twice in my lifetime. I am thankful to them for that. They don’t owe me anything more.

Diogo_'s picture

I don't see how you can say that the melodies in this album got lame and irritating for you, they are just so amazing so strong and powerfull, I just cant stop listening to it, its a brilliant work I would say its my favourite album ever, the melodies are beatifull with meaningfull lyrics, and balanced with some really cool heavy stuff, and you said you liked the orchestration of DT well this album has amazing orchestration...

The Ayatollah's picture

@lak89: I agree completely!

makoush's picture

Respecting others thoughts or beliefs is hard but important, we cannot be blindly biased and thats it. I respect others thoughts and keep whats mine for me .. DT are good and will always be.. Like them or not will not change a thing..

Soulfire's picture

Ditto everything you just said.

Crash_of_Doom's picture

I just realised that this discussion happens everytime DT brings out a new album. There are always fans that either like it, don't like it, or aren't sure what to think of it. I really liked all the albums so far, but what's wrong with not (partially) liking a new album? It happens! I mean, say you're making dinner and the meal you make, you are really looking forward to it, but in the end you don't like the taste of it.

Well, that happens to bands as well. Doesn't mean you have to stop cooking that meal. Except you don't wait 2 years to make a meal again...

Andreas Cambrand's picture

ILPower, I agree with you that it's not right to criticize people who express their opinions, no matter if they're positive in nature or negative. At the end of your post though you're sprouting some logical fallacies in my opinion. One [i]can[/i] be disappointed when Portnoy decides to leave the band and [i]still[/i] think that what happens afterwards is a big improvement. Something you love can in fact get even better. Perhaps that's not what you meant and if I misinterpreted your post I apologize. I for one [i]do[/i] think that the members of Dream Theater sound better than ever at the moment but that doesn't mean that I don't love Portnoy and what he's done these past 25 years. [i]Scenes From A Memory[/i] remains my favorite album but [i]A Dramatic Turn Of Events[/i] is definitely top 3 in my book and if I had to give it a proper ranking I'd probably say that it's their second best album. After the first two listens though I didn't think it belonged in my top 5.

About Mike Mangini; who one's favorite drummer is is of course a matter of taste and there's no "right or wrong" there. However, I figured I might as well express my own opinion while I'm at it. In terms of pure skill and polyrythmical abilities I must say that Mangini is way ahead of Portnoy (one would almost think that he has more than one brain in that head of his) and the creative way in which he utilizes his monstrous kit allows him to emphasize the harmonical movements in the songs in ways I've never, ever heard before. Have you seen them live this tour? I think that if the new album was mixed the way their previous albums were (with the drums being more in the forefront, overwhelming and sometimes drowning other aspects of the music) people would probably embrace Genie's playing a lot more cause he's doing a lot of insane yet subtle things in these songs. The "drum camera recording" picked up some of that when they performed Outcry live, stuff you wouldn't really notice on the record unless you're really paying attention and focus on what Genie is playing and/or unless you have a really high end stereo system that is able to properly separate the different instruments, not allowing them to sort of "float together". [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zb4EuMG3hM&feature=feedf&hd=1]Here's a link to the clip[/url].

About the mix, I love the fact that a lot of stuff is a lot more balanced on this record (Myung can be heard, the sound of the guitars and keyboards are awesome) but if I could choose I would have wanted the drums to stand out a bit more. I think that some middle road between the old records and ADTOE in terms of mastering would be perfect for my taste.

Note that I'm in no way saying that my opinion is right and someone else's is wrong cause personal opinions are just that; personal. I just wanted to share my two cents on the matter. Anyways, I can't wait for the gig in Stockholm and I'm thinking of catching a flight to Helsinki to see them there as well. I haven't fully decided yet.

DragonAttack's picture

Personal tastes again.....reading the concert reviews, where a poster was so happy with the 'Glass Moon' set list. Ya know, shame on me, but that is my least favorite and always skipped track on I&W. That does not mean that I am not a fan (at least I hope not).

The heaviness of the last two releases did bring in a new set of fans. That has been apparent at concerts over the past few years. There was a bit too much imo.

The concert in DC and the new release have allowed me to do one really important thing: listen to their back catalogue again and enjoy it as I did before the 'departure'. I'm very grateful for that.

And, yes, as we get older, most things don't grab us as they did. 'Events' would have really blown me away if I was 25. As is, it worked its magic quite well.

ILPower's picture

I agree in certain points, specialy about the last album. I think that this one it's not bad, but it's not the best, like some say.
I think it's not right to criticize peolple who express their opinion because it's less good about the band, people must respect each other.
My sencire opinion? ADTOE, it's one of their poorest albums, doesn't have the spirit that I feel on the others, and Mike Mangini isn't so special at all, he still hasn't fully captured the DT drumming. I understand, because it's his first, but I think that his capability till now in DT it's being way overated.
Being mad with MP for quiting the band it's one thing, saying that DT it's sounding like never before because of the new drummer???
This is being incoeerent with yourselfs opinion about DT the years before, so that great love that I saw on DVD's, concerts, was a lie?!

alexruizgamboa's picture

I respect your opinion. My opinion is that I like all DT albums including ADTOE

They always blow my mind

Phrygian Sunshine's picture

@Psygnosis99:

"Couldn't disagree more in every way. No need to elaborate, if you call yourself such a fan why on and cry about things almost no one else agrees with?"

I don’t feel that my post was whiny in the least bit. I tried to be very concise with my thoughts and feelings for the new album without being combative or arrogant about it in any way. Nor do I believe that a person is required to absolutely love every note that a band plays in order to qualify as a true fan. All artists decline eventually and there’s no shame in that.

For example, let’s take a look at another classic progressive rock group: Rush. I love Rush. I grew up listening to Rush. I can definitely say that Rush is one of my all-time favorite bands, however, as far as I’m concerned, they didn’t need to make any more albums after “Signals.” Sure, they still write and record songs and some of them are OK, but the music no longer exudes that crucial magic. Does that mean that I am no longer a Rush fan? Not at all. Rush has created enough great music throughout their career to earn my lifelong appreciation. Anyone who has listened to “Hemispheres,” “2112,” “Moving Pictures,” and “Permanent Waves” should know exactly what I mean.

For me, the same has become true with Dream Theater. I think that “Images and Words” and “Scenes from a Memory” are two of the most important albums ever recorded, but, looking at their last three albums, I would have to say that DT is now on the downswing. No doubt they will continue to make albums for years to come and I’m sure that I will buy some of it, but I would be very, very surprised (and pleasantly so) if they ever recapture the scope and beauty of those earlier recordings.

theaterofdreams's picture

Okay, I'll add my 2 cents as well...I have spoken about my general praise for the new album but this thread is interesting and I'll comment again. I have been a fan of DT since about 1992. Their first song that I heard that I liked was Pull Me Under. A song which today I really don't ever listen to. Maybe my musical tastes are changing. Anyway, their albums up to and most of Octavrium, I'd say are more original and orchestral sounding. After that I have to tell you I kind of lost interest in them for the most part of the next couple albums. Train of thought, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds and Silver Linings were almost unlistenable to me. Okay there were a few tracks in there I like such as Stream of Consciousness, Vacant, Wither, Ministry of Lost Souls and Repentance but that was about it. They went in a much more metal direction. The reason I got in to DT in the fist place is because they WEREN'T just a metal band. Their music seemed like earlier on seemed better composed and lighter. More orchestral. Beautiful music.

Along comes ADTOE. I was hopeful, but also afraid we'd have just another metal album. At first, for the first few weeks I loved it. Now, over a month or so later I still like it but I am not loving it as much as I first did. At first, I think I loved it so much because it was so different than the last few albums. So with that I was relieved. I have to say though that it is still a great, great album. I still don't list to BMU BMD. That scream just kills it for me. Makes me think of their song from years ago that I also never like: Burning My Soul. Most of the other tracks are great. One think I did notice with the drums though compared to earlier albums is that now their seems to be more standard double bass where it sounds like MM is running. To me, and I know very little about drums, it just sounds like a generic drum beat instead of a more complex drum pattern. It seems like it is just for a speed effect. Again, a bland metal drum technique that most metal bands use.

The slower tracks on the album are so amazing and I think these are the types of tracks that show of James' singing talents the best. All three slower tracks are great. I wish DT could somehow create a long 10+ minute epic track in a slower style. It seems like all their epics (which most I really do like) are all heavy tracks.

But for me overall, I like the more orchestral side of DT. I hope that this album is a step back in that direction. Breaking All Illusions, Outcry, Far From Heaven, and Beneath The Surface are my favorites on this album. Thanks DT...great album overall!

Phrygian Sunshine's picture

Wow! It has been several days since I've had the chance to come back to this forum and I'm pleasantly surprised to find so many cool comments in response to my original post. Thank you, DT fans!

Keysman's picture

I actually do agree with Phrygian Sunshine.
DT were becoming way too metal and not enough prog like the great balance they had between the two on earlier releases such as I+W and Awake and even SFAM.
That perfect balance between the two made them sound unique and set them apart from every other band out there.
With all respect to MP,I think he was pushing them too much in the metal direction to please the masses and this was starting to make them sound like just another Metallica.
I did enjoy BC&SL a lot more than SC though.

Crash_of_Doom's picture

yeah, for the most part. Yesterday when i was cycling home after work, i think i figured it out for myself. It's missing the essential spark that DT had before. It all sounds too clean and i miss the passion. It's more or less a keyboard and guitar fest, because the songs were written without creative input from MM. I think that's why it doesn't grasp me, because it doesn't sound like a whole band. Don't get me wrong, this is no disrespect towards MM, he did a great job. Something has changed in the chemistry of the band and i think that's the reason why this album doens't really grasp me.

Soulfire's picture

[quote=Crash_of_Doom] [b]Or they are fanboys that can handle a negative view on their favorite band. You tell me...[/b]

Having said that, i partially agree with what is written here. I've been a fan since late 2003 and MP leaving was a real test of "faith" for me. I had low expectations of the new album, but i still bought it and gave it a few spins. I like it more then i expected, but still i don't listen to it as much when previous albums came out.[b] I can't lay my finger on it yet, but there is something about this album that fails to grasp me.[/b] I haven't figured it out yet, but i'm not sure what my opinion on the album is. It contains great tracks (i love Bridges In The Sky and Breaking All Illusions), there are songs i skip. Besides the two before mentioned songs, Lost Not Forgotten and Outcry are the four songs i listen to the most.[/quote]

In response to your first statement, I'd say that's definitely a possibility on here.

I get what you're saying with the album. I feel the same way. I like it, but i won't open itunes and go "awesome, let's go straight to ADTOE" like I did with older albums. I think it's just the fact that it's such a "safe" album. There's a few moments that make you really stick your head out and go "oooh thats interesting", but there are quite a few moments that just seem so DreamTheaterish that its overdone... to the point where you just go "meh"... I think that's the best way to describe the feeling as i see it. Is that what you're getting?

yogi's picture

Tonight in Grand Prairie, TX- We are psyched!!!!!!

Wolfpacker96's picture

[quote=Crash_of_Doom]Wow, it looks like a lot of people feel like being stepped on their toes. I think the first post is well written and backed up good with his opinions. Then there are some other members that attack him with posts that do not contain any motivation why, but looks like just to attack the OP. Or they are fanboys that can handle a negative view on their favorite band. You tell me...

Having said that, i partially agree with what is written here. I've been a fan since late 2003 and MP leaving was a real test of "faith" for me. I had low expectations of the new album, but i still bought it and gave it a few spins. I like it more then i expected, but still i don't listen to it as much when previous albums came out. I can't lay my finger on it yet, but there is something about this album that fails to grasp me. I haven't figured it out yet, but i'm not sure what my opinion on the album is. It contains great tracks (i love Bridges In The Sky and Breaking All Illusions), there are songs i skip. Besides the two before mentioned songs, Lost Not Forgotten and Outcry are the four songs i listen to the most.

I don't know if it is because this album is "less" metal and balls then previous albums, but like i said before: there's something i still can't point out why i haven't embraced it yet. Perhaps i just need to see them live in february, but €60,- is really too much for a gig to me. If it was €40,-, i would surely go, but €60,- is just stupidly expensive in my eyes. Yeah, before people throw "how dare you call yourself a fan" at me, you can like something a lot and still think it's not worth the expenses.[/quote]

Wow, that's like $85! That is a lot. I think I paid $55 in Atlanta with all the ticket fees included. Check out this lyric video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_692115&v=Fa8mB5F_-...

I honestly didn't like this song too much before I saw this, but now I can't get it out of my head. And I usually like the heavier songs better (I'm one of the odd Systematic Chaos fans). I think it's the lyrics that really touched me. Just beautiful writing. 1000 times better than any pop crap out there. Of course the other 4 you mentioned really rock (though Lost Not Forgotten I really can't get into) and I think Breaking All Illusion is their best song in well over a decade.

Crash_of_Doom's picture

Wow, it looks like a lot of people feel like being stepped on their toes. I think the first post is well written and backed up good with his opinions. Then there are some other members that attack him with posts that do not contain any motivation why, but looks like just to attack the OP. Or they are fanboys that can handle a negative view on their favorite band. You tell me...

Having said that, i partially agree with what is written here. I've been a fan since late 2003 and MP leaving was a real test of "faith" for me. I had low expectations of the new album, but i still bought it and gave it a few spins. I like it more then i expected, but still i don't listen to it as much when previous albums came out. I can't lay my finger on it yet, but there is something about this album that fails to grasp me. I haven't figured it out yet, but i'm not sure what my opinion on the album is. It contains great tracks (i love Bridges In The Sky and Breaking All Illusions), there are songs i skip. Besides the two before mentioned songs, Lost Not Forgotten and Outcry are the four songs i listen to the most.

I don't know if it is because this album is "less" metal and balls then previous albums, but like i said before: there's something i still can't point out why i haven't embraced it yet. Perhaps i just need to see them live in february, but €60,- is really too much for a gig to me. If it was €40,-, i would surely go, but €60,- is just stupidly expensive in my eyes. Yeah, before people throw "how dare you call yourself a fan" at me, you can like something a lot and still think it's not worth the expenses.

Wolfpacker96's picture

[quote=yogi]I I get to see them live tomorrow in Grand Prarie, TX. My first Dream Theatre show and I cant wait!!![/quote]

Have fun!

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