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After hearing ADTOE (legally!!!!!) which do you think are the best drum parts from the Genie?
(please specify song and time)
I just want to say also, after seeing them third row middle in Austin, I have never experienced a better live drumming performance. Like one poster commented, live is so differe t from the album. No one hits harder or more powerful than Mangini, it's just insane. No disrespect to MP but this band has never been better live! Its awe inspiring.
I love how most comments on this thread have nothing to do with the original post. Mangini is a better fit for DT end of story. Watch them live for proof.
Anyway, badass drum parts on adtoe, my favorites are in bridges, where he transitiona into the chorus twice with the octobans and it sounds amazing. Towards the end, where the sound changes into the marching oriental kinda idea, he does single stroke snare rolls, half a second long each time, several times, its hard to hear but when you do, wow!
Also love how he plays off of instrument specific solos instead of juat playing nonstop double bass like Portnoy did that drowned out solos. An example is in illusions when Myung does his speed runs, mangini is playing JUST the octobans in perfect time that complements the bass guitar. He's a musical genius.
I was personally amazed by Mangini's work. solo of Breaking all Illusion boggles my mind. just 1 minute of madness can make me love this song. (I love the whole song but that minute is my favorite) I also love the intro to lost not forgotten.
Just my 2 cents. This is the first DT album in a long time where the drumming hasn't been over the top. It's one thing to play the drums on a song. It's quite another to beat the crap out of the drums for every song. After a while that just gets old.
[quote=Keysman]I agree with Sephiros,MM wasnt there in the songwriting process so I cant really comment much on the quality or best drum parts on the album as to me they just sound like straight ahead drumming and nothing really fancy Like MP used to do.
I look forward to the next album so MM can have full input into what he plays and I bet it will be something really special. ;) [/quote]
Straight ahead drumming? You're kidding, right?
Listen from 2:12 to 2:27
The polyrythyms going on there are incredible. Absolutely insane to play (IMHO)
I agree with Sephiros,MM wasnt there in the songwriting process so I cant really comment much on the quality or best drum parts on the album as to me they just sound like straight ahead drumming and nothing really fancy Like MP used to do.
I look forward to the next album so MM can have full input into what he plays and I bet it will be something really special. ;)
I love the very end of Bridges in the Sky. The drums on the last part are just awesome! I agree that the mix on the album seems a bit low.
Here's the problem: After seeing them live on this tour, they DEFINITELY need to look at the drum mix. After watching mangini, there are so many accents that can't even be heard on the album that he performs live. on the album, the bass drum is just awfully flat, the snare has no tone, the cymbals are not mixed well enough to have the impact to accent the parts they are trying to represent. Live, it was a whole different story and he is as great of a drummer as we all knew he'd be. I hope they will fix this for the next album.
Mike Mangini approached the drumming on this album like a musician should. He knew his role at every given point. He tastefully fullfilled his primary role as drummer by having impeccable timing and supporting the melodic voices, taking his own moments only when musically appropriate. Notes for notes sake doesn't equal good drumming. As a drummer/percussionist myself, I loved it.
The drums are so low key on this album. They might as well used a drum track. The mixing of the drums is terrible. A huge part/basis of any successful prog rock band ins the drums. All of the songs are missing a certain vitality that was prevalent on all other DT albums. I certainly don't think it's the quality/talent of musicians...the drums are just not driving the music like they did before. It certainly sounds like the drums were added as an afterthought to the album. The bass drums have no bottom end sound - they sound very VERY flat. Again, I think it's the mixing. Hope the next effort is better.
I like the drumming on this album a lot, not too flashy. I think that is exactly what MM had in mind.
But I like others think the mix and drum sounds are not done very well.
In spots where you would expect to get an earful of drum fill, there is some faint toms being heard. Maybe I'm getting old and deaf but the tones seem muddled to me. Tighten those heads and make some noise!
I really can't wait to hear the next album ;). Where MM is involved from the get go and his place / role in the band will be much more defined than when he did this recording.
DT still rules.
It's pointless to review his drumming for this album. The song writing process took place completely without him which is HUGE. He was probably on a tight schedule when recording the drum tracks as well. I'm sure that he'll do some crazy stuff on the live shows. And I have absolutely no doubt the next album when he's actually involved with the writing process the drums will be a whole different animal. His drumming on this album sounded absolutely fantastic none the less, but it didn't have the Portnoy style fills and what not. Judging Mangini on this album is comical at best. Bottom line, he performed great on the recording, he'll perform even better live, and the next album we'll get to finally hear his creative input.
On the flip side we didn't judge Portnoy on his recording of Nightmare with A7X because he didn't write those drum tracks either. (I think he got a little creative freedom with the last song "Save Me" but that was it.
[quote=Soulfire]Technically, none of them are "Mangini's" drum parts, they're Petrucci's.[/quote]
In my opinion, this is not accurate. :)
In Rush, almost 100% of the tracks are music by Lee & Lifeson and lyrics by Peart.
I'm sure that Neil is also presented demos, and uses them to see what he is starting with.
Nobody ever said that none of Neil's drum parts are his, just because someone else wrote the song.
[quote=Soulfire]And that was a let down for me on the album. I felt like the drum parts were just background, and Mangini didn't have enough room for creativity. Hopefully live and on the next album that will be improved though.[/quote]
I agree that Mangini walked a fine line on this album. He had to make it sound like Dream Theater, and may have even thought "What would Portnoy do?" at times. My best guess is that it will be a different story on the next CD. Imagine how tight they will all be by next year, after the US and European tours!
Let's start with this...
NO ONE can play like Mangini. Whether you say he's a dull drummer in the album, or it's splishy splashy all the time, he is by far one of the greatest drummers of all time. I had him as an instructor 4 years ago when I went to Berklee for a summer percussion festival and he has a practice regimen unlike any other drummer in the world. The way he leads with his left hand when he feels like it is unbelievable.
On the album, his feel for each and every song is perfect. I'd agree to say he plays pretty straight on a couple of the songs but it seems to fit perfectly. Anything other than straight wouldn't be as great. In "On the Backs Of Angels", his rhythm hand keeping up with jordan's crazy keyboard part and his dissociation of his feet is something that is still giving me a hard time to even think about. (I hope all knows what I'm mentioning here. At the beginning of the song sort of)
Overall, One of my favorite albums of DT next to Octavarium.
He's a great drummer and I hope he grows onto the fans.
Portnoy spent 20 odd years with DT creating, what seems to be, hundreds of songs. Mangini learned them note for note in months.
As a drummer, I can say Mangini did an excellent job. Is it like Portnoy's style no, but I can detect several subtle things here that are amazing. I really like the way he plays the hi hat on this is the life. It has a neat swing feel to it yet keeps in perfect time with the rest of the band. I can totally relate to the comments Jordan said about Mangini's style. The first listen through I was looking for the insane drumming fills and the cymbal stack rhythms in certain sections I am used to hearing. After a few times through the album I have noticed several neat fills and rhythms even in the same song. There is a lot of style going on here, Mangini did an excellent job and I personally rank this album in the top two of everything DT has done over the years.
Well done Mike can't wait to see you play live
I am not here to criticize MM's creation for this album. But I want to point out that to be critical of MM's creations, I would have to look at the fact that JP, JM, and JR's creations were more advanced, and intricate than any thing I have heard. MM's parts were absolutely perfect; he played those drums in a manner in which I haven't heard. MM's ability to keep time, while playing parts that the other members were playing, going from JP, to JR, to JM, within songs, was immaculate. I especially enjoy his rhythm sections with playing the same melody with JM, because its been a long time since I have listened to JM's wonderful bass riffs.
JP, JM, and JR created riffs that even MP wouldv'e had trouble with. Each note that is played by these three is without a doubt the most advanced, heartfelt sounds that I have ever heard.
Throughout the album, MM did a perfect job; his rolls were extraordinary, his keeping time is impeccable, and his ability to switch as quickly as he did with all the odd time signatures within odd time signatures kept all the elements together.
The most noticeable difference between this album and previous albums with regards to the drums, is the fact that the volume in this new album is in line with all the other instruments, and JP, really did an excellent job along with Mr. Northfield and others, in raising the volume up/down to highlight each instrument in a particular point in the movement. The entire album is a movement.
MP is a god, no doubt about that, and no question that his impact on DT is known. But now, MM is part of the DT, and I certainly embrace him, and thank him for his contribution in this album, and help shift the consciousness that is DT.
i think its just a case of time will tell, most drum parts were already written before MM arrived. He didnt really have the input we all would have expected from the times of MP, but the quality of playing is still flawless regardless of time. On the subject of mixing, I think that more work to bring MM into a good perspective should have been priority. As a drummer and a DT fan for 15 years I have come to expect a more robust and harder drum sound from the guys, and I agree with some of the posts on here that the drums on some occasions do sound flimsy and tinny at best.
This is early days for a very new family.......I didnt know what to expect and the "black clouds" of doubt came over me too. But what I heard was classic DT songcraft at its best and on first listen I was blown away, just as I have been for every release since Infinity.
So much respect to the boys......
Technically, none of them are "Mangini's" drum parts, they're Petrucci's.
And that was a let down for me on the album. I felt like the drum parts were just background, and Mangini didn't have enough room for creativity. Hopefully live and on the next album that will be improved though.
The best parts? . . . .
Everyone of them!
After watching alll the auditions, the live perfomances overseas and the interviews, he is the one person that can fit for the postition.
His capability is great. He really understands the TONE (have you heard him say this?) and what is being played.
In summary, the fit is perfect and DT has not missed a beat with this release. Pun intended.
7:43 to 8:43 in Outcry! MM is a master!
Mixing is an art. And each one have their own "taste" for mixing. If you give a song to 5 guys, you´ll have 5 different mixings...Believe me!
Yes, I think the snare with a little bit much (lol...) treble. BTW, the whole mix is treble (what I ADORE).
This record is not a "raw" one, like ToT. It´s more "produced" than OV, even more produced than SFAM. I liked.......but I was hopping something a little bit better........well........"better" is not the word...something more "musical", concentrated in the musical arrangements, not in show how good musicians they are.
But, a DT album will always be a DT album........
Contrary to a few of the views expressed here, I actually like the fact that Mangini didn't go into the studio with a 'guns blazing, balls-to-the-wall, over the top' approach---and that says a lot, because the drumming on [i]A Dramatic Turn of Events[/i] isn't exactly a "walk in the park". Mike played exactly what the album called for. I've followed his career for well over a decade, and his playing speaks for itself; the guy really is at a one-of-a-kind level. However, what really impressed me, both on the new album and the summer tour, was his professionalism. The way he has been so respectful of playing Portnoy's original parts, as well as not trying to prove his right to be in the band by over playing etc., was very professional. The new album does have a good bit of "groove/pocket" playing, but is that really a bad thing? What I hear is a guy who wants to play what's best for the music. His drumming complements the new album so well, without coming across as "hey everybody, look how amazingly crazy-good my drumming is!". You don't just play however you feel like upon being accepted into a band of Dream Theater's stature. Apart from being common sense, it's just basic courtesy. You're the "new guy", and over time, you get more of a say-so, and various other privileges. It's a transition period for everyone in the band, and I'd imagine that the last thing Mike wanted to do was steal the show by playing over everyone else. As far as I'm concerned, the guy knocked it out of the ballpark. It's easy for spectators to talk big, and forget just how much talent, discipline and dedication it takes to get to where Mike Mangini is.
To point out one section where I think MM is delivering magic is 4:27-4:52 Lost not Forgotten.
Just focus in on the hihat playing straight fourths and the groovy feel it has. While at the same time the other three limbs are kinda out of control chasing after something like a master with a three-way leash with young dogs going nuts. But they are perfectly following the rest of the band in the fills!
And especially 4:40 snare going into double time, still with the hihat doing the steady fourths... listening to that part always makes me feel like rollercoaster loopings.
And in the pre-verse setup he is flowing like a stream and his fill into the verse is a jewel of a cascade.
And it feels effortlessly.
This part was also in the snippet and it took my mind for a moment.
[quote=Ianuarius]@The Shaman: Superb sounding? Are you nuts?! :D
I'd propably like the ending of the instrumental section of Outcry but all I can hear of the drums is "splish, splash, splish, splash, splishsplash, splish, splash..." Even all the cymbals sound like splashes! :D And that's all you can distinguish there. I just have to imagine that maybe he's doing some crazy shit with the double kick drums... but I have no idea if he is or not because its sound is flooded by all the other instruments. He might as well just not play anything with his feet there.
I'm not bashing Mangini here. He comes off as a great personality, very warm and also an amazing player. But the drumming on this album is DULL! Even the stuff in Surrounded is more interesting than pretty much anything on this album... and that's not even that technical song.
EDIT: Or did you mean the lighter part at the end of the instrumental? Because I agree -- THAT is pretty nice. :)[/quote]
Yes you can edit your posts. As long as you're logged in, hit the action bar under your avitar and hit "edit comment."
Huh, I wonder what album you MP guys are listening to. As a drummer myself (don't know if any of you are either) I hear a guy (MM) who's drumming is consistantly superior to anything MP did with DT. It's just that MM's playing is so effortless it's doesn't even seem like he's trying. Kind of like JP with guitar. I don't neeed to pick out any particular parts of the album to point out MM's better work, because it's all phenominal. The Portnoy's "trickery" mentioned in a previous post is exactly that. Things that sound difficult but really aren't so much so, at least for MM. MM play's all the MP parts like they're no big deal.
Now think about this. MM practiced for the tour for less than 3 weeks and had exactly 3 practices with the group before the first live show. Now considering he commited all those "complicated" MP parts to memory and played them exactly as written on the albums, I'd say that's pretty impressive in itself.
The difference between MP and MM is this. With MM drumming you have to listen FOR it because it's so nuanced and subtle, with MP drumming you have to listen AROUND it because it's so in your face and over played all the time. It's easy to see that when there's a negative MM review, it's the MP fanboys. I know and can understand and appreciate this, because I always was the #1 Portnoy fanboy myself. I still really respect what he has done for the group and his abilities, it's just he's turned into a tool. But that's for another post. Believe me, if I thought MM was anything less than stellar on this album, I'd be the first to say it.
MM allows the group to sail into uncharted territory musically and they're already beginning to do that. Outcry is like TDOE on steroids, and they're just getting started.
Honestly, I cringe when I still hear people say the wish for a DT-MP reunion or with he would come back. Honestly. if MP came back, Id be done as a DT fan. They have the best, nicest mature acting people in that group now and need to keep it that way.
Well, I think we will end up in a sort of "K. Moore vs J. Rudess part 2" contest here...
MM is certainly a much more technical drummer than MP (and Mike admitted that long ago...), but of course we will have many people preferring MP (most people in the world prefer Lada Gaga to DT, de gustibus...)
IMHO, Mangini has already proved all his skills here, and I love his drumming much much more than most of MP' staff. Few reasons why:
1) Dynamics. MM >>>>>>>>>>>>> MP. Portnoy basically only plays loud...MM can play anything from simple "soft background" druminng (e.g. BAI solo) to extremly heavy and violent staff (e.g end of BITS...btw, that part is crazy, listen carefully..:) )
2) "Unisons". MM loves to match parts of the drum kit with other instruments and then play unisons/ polyrythms during some riffs. You can hear a clear example of this already in the intro of OTBOA. Never heard MP do that before (except of course for straightword matches)
3) Polyrythms. I've read many people saying that there are none in this disc. The truth is that there are a few, but they are so smooth and perfect you don't even realize...Best example IMO is in BAI, somewhere around 2'30"..Mike plays again the main riff that is in 7/8+6/8+5/8+7/8 and here he superimposes a 4/8 riff (with a slight triplet feel) played with the hi hat. Fun thing is that even the dynamics of the parts are totally different. That is simply magic.
..and he didn't write the parts..I think in DT12 we will see his full talent. And it will be fun. :)
Well, lanuarius, in my humble opinion Mangini is superb sounding on this album. And nope, I meant the technical part just before that lighter section kicks in.
Ok, so I can't edit my posts here. Nice.
I'll write another post then. What I wanted to say was:
Did you mean the lighter part at the end of the instrumental? Because I agree... that sound pretty nice. :)
EDIT: Oh, so now the edited version updated there. What's wrong with this forum software? PhpBB anyone?
@The Shaman: Superb sounding? Are you nuts?! :D
EDIT: Or did you mean the lighter part at the end of the instrumental? Because I agree -- THAT is pretty nice. :)